Transcript: Episode 261: Stiletto Puncture Test
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[00:00:00] Susan Barry: This is Top Floor with Susan Barry, episode 261. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast.com/episode/261.
[00:00:13] Narrator: Welcome to Top Floor with Susan Barry. This weekly podcast ride up to the top floor features tangible tips and excellent stories from the experts and characters who elevate hospitality. And now, your host and elevator operator, Susan Barry.
[00:00:32] Susan Barry: Welcome to the show. Jessica Gadari's career began in interior design, then widened into branding before she found her way fully into hospitality. She spent years in-house at LDV Hospitality, and eventually led the consulting division at Union Square Hospitality Group, developing concepts like J.P. Morgan's two-floor employee dining program. Jessica is the founder of Porcelain Collective, an agency that handles everything from menu writing to branding to full concept development. Today, we are going to talk about food and beverage concepting in hotels, but before we jump in, we need to answer the call button.
Call button rings…
The emergency call button is our hotline for hospitality professionals who have burning questions. If you would like to submit a question, you can call or text me at 850-404-9630. Today's question was submitted by Dawn. Dawn asks, "Do you have a favorite special touch, whether it's an amuse-bouche or a custom postcard or matchbook, that makes you feel like a restaurant has really put thought into the guest experience?" I like all of those things. What about you, Jessica?
[00:02:00] Jessica Gidari: Yeah. All right. Who doesn't want a little something extra? I always love a lasting bite. So whether at the beginning of the meal, when you're seated, or it's at the very end as a, "Before you go, here's one last flavor to carry you through your journey to get home," I always welcome that and prefer that because I think when I'm thinking about a memory, I think about my senses. And what did it smell like, what did it taste like, what did it feel like, and a great way, I think, is always through a carefully, a thoughtfully crafted dish or flavor that the team put together.
[00:02:51] Susan Barry: Now you're making me want, like, a patisserie or a piece of candy to eat after I leave a restaurant. That’s awesome. I love that. Well, despite what you’ve said, you are not a pastry chef. You started out as an interior designer. What was the project that made you realize hospitality was where you wanted to build your career?
[00:03:13] Jessica Gidari: I was very fortunate early on to land at a great hospitality firm shortly after I graduated design school in Phoenix, Arizona. I knew I didn't want residential, right? I think that's often the path a lot of designers figure out, is it residential, or is it more corporate commercial? I knew I had interned in high school at a few residential studios and realized that wasn't it. So corporate. Okay, let's get a feel. Did a few tattoo removal shops, some office buildings, and then my first restaurant, and that was the beginning of it all. Yeah, it was a restaurant, if you can believe it, that's still open in Phoenix, Arizona, Beckett's Table with Chef Justin Beckett. It's an incredible place. But I remember friends and family on opening night, right? And sitting, especially with a couple of my nearest and dearest, and watching the guests come into the space, sitting on the banquette that I had spent so much time designing and detailing. Feeling the furniture, sitting at the live-edge wood table we had gotten from Portland, Oregon, and the magic of seeing people feel so great in this space while hearing the music, tasting the food that he and his team had put together, having the wine, and it was like, "I don't want anything else." "This is it. This is magic. So that was very early on when I said, "Yeah, how do I get more of this?"
[00:05:07] Susan Barry: Well, you worked everywhere from Rockwell Group to LDV to Union Square. What is the through line? Is there a through line that sort of carried through all of those stops?
[00:05:21] Jessica Gidari: Oh, absolutely. It was being able to experience and understand hospitality from every lens, from every seat at that table. Going into a restaurant is not just about the design. It's not just about how the team handles and does service. It’s not just about the finance behind it. It's about everything. And so Rockwell was where I got to put on my creator hat and really learn how to push the limits of creativity while still being able to develop and build a space that could function, could breathe, could live. It was over at LDV that I learned that creating concepts also meant understanding how you could make it a business and how those two things had to live together, right? We could be as creative as we wanted to, but if you truly couldn't make it run and operate, you didn't have anything. And that was at Union Square, where I learned. And oh my God, I was so privileged to see the real nuance behind what hospitality really means, and being able to see it in a much more, I think, poetic lens of how all of these elements come together to create experiences that will stay with you forever. I mean, you all probably have a restaurant, a hotel, a place that you can recall saying, "That was fantastic." And I've been very fortunate to have many of those different stops where I could focus very much specifically on those parts and pieces. And truly, that's kinda where Porcelain came in, linking all of those together and saying, "These spaces, these experiences are not through one lens, but all of these different angles coming together." So there is a through line, for sure.
[00:07:39] Susan Barry: So I know that I have been asked this 1,000 times in my many years as an entrepreneur. I'm sure you have, too. But I have to ask it because you speak so glowingly of those experiences. Why would you leave a stable job to start your own company?
[00:07:59] Jessica Gidari: That's a great question, and on some of those slower days, I ask myself that too. However, it's because I feel so passionately about what we get to do and the team that I get to do it with. I often felt that way, and why I think I moved from different place to different place because there were some incredibly talented people who would be handling one part of the puzzle. But often, especially in these multi-room hotels, resorts, these big developments, there are so many parts and pieces, and I always was focused on the gaps and how those could all be linked together. And so it's more out of a passion, I think, of why I said, "I'm living this journey to be able to really satisfy the need for a more comprehensive, complete look at how these spaces come together, how they come to be.”
[00:09:09] Susan Barry: Okay, so when you're starting a new food and beverage concept for a hotel, or any concept, I guess. How much of your process follows a sort of methodology or a structured framework, and how much is your instinct or your gut feeling? I promise I won't tell your clients.
[00:09:33] Jessica Gidari: It's both, right? So, at the core, it needs to start with a system, some kind of guardrails of understanding what the problem we're looking to solve is. I would love to just start projects and think, let's think for reach for the stars, what are we gonna create here? But unless you know exactly what you're trying to solve, what the constraints are, you're not gonna be able to successfully design a concept that meets those. So it always starts with structure in place. I always like to do a charrette with my clients to really tap in and to lay out the foundation of what the problems are we're looking to solve, what do the guests need, what does the building need, what are we working with? And once we've laid that foundation, then we get to run wild, and that's when I start to really listen to my intuition, my gut starts to lead the way and say, "Hmm, this is the North Star, and this is how we're gonna get there." So it's absolutely a bit of both. I'm far too Virgo not to have a strong structure.
[00:10:49] Susan Barry: I am sort of the same way with client projects. You know, I often will have a sense of the direction that things are gonna go, but I try to build exercises and conversations and sort of process in place leading up to it to validate that instinct, I guess. Another thing that I think you and I both have to encounter sometimes is how to help clients separate their personal taste from what's going to work strategically, in your case, in a physical space. Do you have any tips and tricks basically for me? Forget our audience for a second.
[00:11:35] Jessica Gidari: Yeah, this is just a one-on-one conversation.
[00:11:36] Susan Barry: Yeah, I got it. For how to help clients do that. I mean, you can say it all day long, but it's really hard to do.
[00:11:44] Jessica Gidari: It's incredibly hard. Everyone has their own personal taste. I have my own personal taste. There have been many projects where, if I took a step back and it was Jessica who was designing it, she would probably have designed it differently based on what I like. But I always have to put that hat on, and I also kinda give that hat to my clients as well and say, "Here are, here's our North Star," or, "Here are the goals that we're trying to achieve. We've done the research. We've really understood the market and what we're trying to solve." So I always lay that foundation, and often, even in presentations, I'll start with that. Reminding everyone, "This is what we're doing and why we're doing it, and now let's have fun with it." So I want them to be a part of the process, and certainly at the beginning, like I said I do with a charrette, especially on branding work, I'll ask, "Is there any color, is there any material that is an absolute no?" And there have been clients who say absolutely no to orange, or you name it. Okay, fine. There are multiple ways to still solve the needs of what the project needs without having a personal dislike. Get that out of the way. But yeah, always return to what, and remind everyone, even myself, what the project needs.
[00:13:09] Susan Barry: What do you think is the biggest mismatch that you see between hoteliers, what they imagine or sort of dream of, and what practically works in their footprint or within their budget?
[00:13:25] Jessica Gidari: It depends on the client. I think it's different sometimes with separate restaurants that are on their own versus restaurants that are within a hotel. But I think from a hotelier's point of view, what often can get overlooked, and what I like to fight on behalf of all of my restaurants, folks, is having enough back-of-house space. It's not the pretty, it's not the beautiful finishes, but laying the foundation early on to make sure there's enough square footage dedicated to the operations and equipment that need to happen. Also, I was watching, believe it or not, a TikTok earlier today of someone making fun of what often can happen in those smaller restaurants, right, where the bathroom corridor is the same as the service corridor. And that awkward moment where the team member is holding back and "I'm carrying a plate of food, but yeah, no, the bathroom's over here. You've got the right of way." So I think often that can get pushed to the back. The other thing I would say is fighting hard for reopening budget and making sure that there's enough dedicated to marketing and also training. I think that often they're not always brought to light how much is dedicated to a really great training process. It's not a one-day, it's not a two-day, but dedicating and paying the team to come to really have them fully understand the concept and nuance of how they're speaking to the guests to connect the dots back to the concept. The ways in which the space has been designed for different rituals to happen. All of those different elements take time, and again, dedicated resources to how the team feels properly prepared for service.
[00:15:48] Susan Barry: I agree on training. I also agree so much on marketing. I think what ends up happening is people, particularly the sort of, like finance/investment/real estate contingent, they're so immersed in the project that it's inconceivable to them that if they build it, people won't come, right? So they just assume they're so immersed that everybody else will, of course, know that it's coming, and having opened many hotels and concepts, I can tell you that that is definitely not the truth. What about something like a high-volume setting like an airport club? How does that change the way you think about something like building out a menu?
[00:16:37] Jessica Gidari: It's a great case study. A few of the people on my team have much experience with a few of those airport lounges and clubs. I would also say a good comparison is on the JP Morgan project. Dedicated time was spent on looking at the throughput of the number of employees that would be going through each and every station at every hour of the day, and being able to predict where there was going to be a pinch point, where was there gonna be a moment where the queue was longer than we could handle. And because of that, how does that then distill down to the time it would take to do each and every dish? And if there was a way to consolidate that time, so whether that was, let's talk about, like, a cocktail, right? Not that you were doing it at JP Morgan, but certainly at an airport lounge.
[00:17:39] Susan Barry: I was like, oh, sounds like a fun place I work. I'm there.
[00:17:41] Jessica Gidari: I will say, one of these days you should try and find your way into Morgan's pub up there at an airport club. Thinking about even some cocktails, we do this all the time at restaurants as well, pre-batched cocktails. So where can you help consolidate the time it takes so that it's still a great drink, but you're not needing to do all of the mixing and batching together in front of the guest while delaying service on being able to attend to somebody else. The other key thing about an airport lounge is don't disregard or assume that your traveler has a vast palate and wants to try anything and everything. Yes, often, but usually during travel they're looking for something for comfort. They're ready to explore once they're at the destination, but not necessarily when they have only a little bit of time. They need to charge their laptop or their phone, and they just need a bite for comfort to sustain to keep them going. So don't disregard the fan favorites. There was always a need for a turkey club. There's always a need for a burger. There's always a need for a flatbread and/or pizza. We are creatures of habit, and that will never go away. So that's always something to keep in mind.
[00:19:16] Susan Barry: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of when I opened a hotel that had an Italian restaurant, and the concept was that the Italian food and beverage concept would carry through to in-room dining and everything else. And I remember this man who was, like, an old-timer Marriott guy, being like, "I'll tell you what. If travelers can't get a club sandwich, they are gonna be angry." And he was correct about that. This episode of Top Floor with Susan Barry is brought to you by Lodgify. Here's one that will resonate with anyone who has ever managed guests in any capacity. Your phone does not care that it's 11:00 PM. Someone always has a question, a request, a check-in issue, and if you're the one running the property, it lands with you. Lodgify has an AI tool that handles guest messages automatically, so the routine stuff gets answered right away around the clock without you having to be the one doing it. You stay in control, but you don't have to be on call for every little thing. Top Floor listeners get 20% off on all one or two-year plans with the code TOPFLOOR20. Go to lodgify.com or the link in the show notes and use code TOPFLOOR20. We like to make sure that our listeners come away from every single episode of Top Floor with some practical and tangible things they can try either in their businesses or in their personal lives. What is a practical first step any hotelier could take today to strengthen their restaurant concept even without hiring outside help? Although they should.
[00:21:15] Jessica Gidari: I will always vouch for that. I think there are questions to be asked, right? Before any steps to be made of thinking through why would someone who isn't staying at the hotel would want to come here. Do people know that this restaurant even exists outside of the hotel, right? Is there any signage that indicates this exists, or is it only purely dedicated to the hotel? If you took this concept and took it out of the hotel, would people understand what it is, right? There's always that distinction of a hotel restaurant. But if you took the hotel name off of it, does that still exist? And I think if you start to ask yourself that, then you can start to really dial in on what might need to shift to strengthen the identity of that concept to make it have more of a presence, staying power.
[00:22:19] Susan Barry: Speaking of concept, is there a concept that you wish someone would try that you haven't maybe seen?
[00:22:26] Jessica Gidari: Oh my gosh. I mean, I get excited by all new concepts that pop up because I love people trying something new or taking spins on something that's been done but done in a different way. I would say, just on a personal side, my husband and I met and lived in Arizona for about 10 years. I have yet to find great Tex-Mex outside of that Southwest area. And it's not to say that it would be a home run for everyone, but you would have a devout following if you could really nail it. Many have tried, even here in New York, and many have failed. If it's not real true, give me that green chili burrito. But again, that's a personal quest of my own.
[00:23:24] Susan Barry: So that's funny because the green chili of it all is something that I think a lot of people don't even know about. When I lived in Colorado, my very first hotel, the sous chef or one of the chefs was a Mexican cook. Obviously, she was Mexican. She made the most delicious green chili with burritos, and it was like something that people would ask to be scheduled to work that day so that they could get it, because it was the most delicious food that had ever been made in the history of time. But I never even knew green chili was a thing until I had it there. Would you ever open a restaurant?
[00:24:05] Jessica Gidari: That is a great question, and I will say I've had many conversations with a few of my team members, and who knows? It's one of those things when you keep saying it often more and more and more, does it start to become real, you know? At this moment, no.
[00:24:21] Susan Barry: But maybe you need to open a green chili restaurant. Well, we have reached the fortune-telling portion of our show, so aside from predicting that you're gonna open a green chili restaurant, you have to predict the future, and then we'll come back and see if you got it right. What is a general prediction that you have about the future of food and beverage in hotels?
[00:24:43] Jessica Gidari: I mean, I think you've already started to see it, but restaurants in hotels are gonna be seen and looked at far less like an amenity and more like a distinct, separate hospitality brand. That shift's already been happening, but it's gonna be happening more and more. A lot of the hotel brands that we work with are already making that internally as a mandate for how they are giving that directive to any of their franchisees or any of the ownership groups that are taking on some of these flags. So I predict that will strengthen and shift far more in the next few years.
[00:25:23] Susan Barry: Can you say a little bit more about how that plays out practically? Like, do you mean here is a menu of five concepts that you can choose from, and these will all be treated like freestanding restaurants? Or do you mean every hotel needs to have its own concept and freestanding restaurant, or something else that I'm not getting?
[00:25:43] Jessica Gidari: So sometimes it depends on the different hotel brands and also the spectrum of where it falls and the type of service that the brand requires. But every hotel, when you look at it, especially around the lifestyle and up, needs and requires food and beverage. And so sometimes the mandate might be that you need to have a third-party operator, which is great. They've already got a built-in brand that they're bringing in and can add a layer onto that property. Or you have to have a three-meal-period restaurant, but it needs to have its own distinct brand, its own name, branding, a new design, a menu that speaks to and caters to local needs and desires. So even if you are self-operating and managing that property, you need to give dedicated thought to what that concept is, and it can't just be a check-the-box. This hotel also serves breakfast, lunch, and dinner. No, this hotel has a restaurant called X and serves these types of dishes during these hours.
[00:26:59] Susan Barry: Interesting. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about the state of dining today, what would it be? You can change more than one if you want.
[00:27:13] Jessica Gidari: I think that this industry shifts constantly. I do say, and I was having dinner with a few friends maybe a week or so ago, and I got on a little bit of a soapbox. I do think there's gonna be a need to return to human-to-human connection, that human scale. I think we've passed the point, but we've been in an era of maximalism, especially in design, where it was finish on finish on detail on menus that were bigger than life, and it was a little bit more focused on the aesthetic. Choose your poison, Instagram moment, TikTok view, or reel, but it was all about capturing that moment, and it was less about the conversation you were having with the person next to you and bringing people together. So I think we're past that, and I am craving more of the almost intangible, the hospitality of it all, and returning back to something more like that. So if I could wave a magic wand, we'd go more in that direction.
[00:28:32] Susan Barry: I think you're on the right track. Okay, folks, before we tell Jessica goodbye, we are going to head down to the loading dock, where all of the best stories get told.
Elevator voice announces, “Going down.
[00:28:48] Susan Barry: Jessica, what is a story you would only tell on the loading dock?
[00:28:53] Jessica Gidari: It's a story that I don't think many people would know, do know. But as a concept of this whole conversation about hospitality and why we all find ourselves in the mix of it, hospitality, we all know, can be found in many different spaces, and also many different industries. But at its core, it's about how we make people feel. And I learned about hospitality on an early design project as well, even before the restaurant, when I designed my first strip club.
[00:29:31] Susan Barry: Whoa, what? I didn't know about this.
[00:29:36] Jessica Gidari: I know. We're in the loading dock, right? And it followed a similar process. I needed to understand who the guest was, who the team would be to operate and use the space. What were their needs for how they could best operate in that space? Looking at, yes, I did a stiletto puncture test on vinyls to make sure that it would withstand abuse in that space. Stain testing on fabrics and finishes. It was a similar process as I've done for many restaurants.
[00:30:25] Susan Barry: I have to tell you that the notion that a strip club hires a designer would never have occurred to me until this exact moment. That is amazing, and I wish that I had a video of you high-heel testing the furniture in the strip club because I think that would be hilarious.
[00:30:52] Jessica Gidari: It was hilarious. It was also the contrast of the situation, but also the seriousness of making sure I used the right heel.
[00:31:05] Susan Barry: Oh my gosh, Jessica Gidari, thank you so much for being here. I know that our listeners have a lot to think about when it comes to food and beverage concepts, and I appreciate you riding to the top floor with us.
[00:31:18] Jessica Gidari: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. This was a blast. Thank you so much, Susan.
[00:31:24] Susan Barry: Thanks so much for listening. You can find the show notes at toploorpodcast.com/episode/261. Jonathan Albano is our editor, producer, and all-around genius. He even wrote and performed our theme song with vocals by Cameron Albano. You can subscribe to Top Floor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen, and your rating or review will go a long way in helping us give you more of what you like.
[00:32:00] Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Top Floor podcast at www.topfloorpodcast.com. Have a hospitality marketing question? Reach us at 850-404-9630 to be featured in a future episode.