Transcript: Episode 222: Baa Baa Bourdain
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[00:00:00] Susan Barry: This is Top Floor episode 222. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast.com/episode/222.
[00:00:14] Narrator: Welcome to Top Floor with Susan Barry. This weekly podcast ride up to the top floor features tangible tips and excellent stories from the experts and characters who elevate hospitality. And now your host and elevator operator, Susan Barry.
[00:00:32] Susan Barry: Welcome to the show. Christin Marvin is a hospitality lifer who started cooking at 15 in Missouri. Found her voice bartending and serving at Outback, and then cut her teeth, opening concepts at the Broadmoor, including her first of an astounding 13 openings. She moved to Denver, became a successful restaurant general manager, helped launch five concepts in five years, which is making me sweat, just saying that, and learned hard lessons from a failed casual French venture. At Snooze, she rode hypergrowth from 6 to 48 locations, then hit burnout, got sober and rebuilt her career around what she loved most, coaching leaders. Now, Christin coaches independent restaurant owners on building the right leadership teams, systems and culture to scale sustainably. She's the author of a book on burnout and a second book codifying her independent restaurant framework, and she hosts the Restaurant Leadership Podcast. Today, we are going to talk about owner-operator leadership coaching, but before we jump in, we need to answer the call button.
Call button rings…
The emergency call button is our hotline for hospitality professionals who have burning questions. If you would like to submit a question, you can call or text me at (850) 404-9630. Today's question was submitted by Alex. Here's what Alex says, what is your biggest ick or pet peeve when you go out to dinner? Christin, I love talking about this with restaurant people. What is your dining pet peeve?
[00:02:24] Christin Marvin: Oh man, I have a lot of them. So, I'm gonna have to narrow this down real quick. I crave tour guides at the table that ask, “Have you been here before?” That have a genuine interest in expressing their passion around the concept and the menu and some of their favorite items. When somebody is just an order taker, “Hi, what can I get you to drink?” It just disappoints me from the get-go. And then I realize, okay, if I wanna have a great experience here, it's all on me. I'm gonna have to ask a lot of questions. I'm gonna have to pull a lot out of this person. There's no hospitality that's gonna be offered. It's just gonna be transactional and that is a real bummer. And that tells me, I won't come back to that restaurant unless I know the owner or if I've got a really good reason.
[00:03:17] Susan Barry: Interesting. That sort of reminds me of one of my also many, which is when you say, I'm trying to decide between option A and option B, what would you recommend? And they say it depends on what you're in the mood for. Well, really? Oh, thank you so much for that insight. Like, come on, dude.
[00:03:39] Christin Marvin: Yeah, you're opening the door. Like, give me something, show me something. And yeah, it just falls flat. That’s too bad.
[00:03:46] Susan Barry: Well, speaking of openings, openings are notoriously difficult, but certain personalities, like my own, are very attracted to them. What kept you saying yes to opening restaurants like 13 is about the same as a million. Do you think that you have a different understanding of the business as a result of that, or do you think you're just a glutton for punishment?
[00:04:12] Christin Marvin: Oh my God. I never saw opening restaurants as punishment. I mean, I was addicted to putting all that strategic work in behind the scenes, and then the day the restaurant opens and your staff feels confident and they're doing their jobs, they've implemented all the training, the guests start to come in the door and they're immediately wowed by the decor and the ambiance and everything that you've created, and then they come and tell you that they've just had a great time. Even if it's your soft opening, everyone is kind and hospitable and wants to provide feedback. That’s magical. I don't have kids, so I've always compared opening restaurants to childbirth and so, which moms are probably like, what are you talking about?
[00:04:56] Susan Barry: It's pretty painful.
[00:04:58] Christin Marvin: Yeah, but it's so joyful. To spend 90 days or 6 months or a year, however long, doing all this planning and then watch it come to life is just really, really beautiful. For me, I was in my mid twenties when I started opening restaurants, and so when you get that first one under your belt and you build that confidence in yourself, and then you have the opportunity to open different concepts and start to build your skillset and adaptability, I was like, the sky's the limit here. There's no concept that I can't open. And then when you start to scale the same concept over and over again, you just understand exactly why systems and tools and resources are so important. And why it's so important to strengthen your foundation in those existing concepts. And then when you open a new one, you figure out exactly what the business needs to grow and how to innovate, and it's just awesome. It's where your creativity muscle starts to flex.
[00:06:00] Susan Barry: It's interesting. I don't think there are a lot of people who specialize in opening restaurants, like it's probably a pretty small club now.
[00:06:08] Christin Marvin: It's interesting. There are people out there that are helping people scale. There are people out there that are helping with training, it's a very mixed bag. I am really surprised about how many concepts are continuing to scale in this most challenging market that the restaurant group has ever seen. So I think if there's not a lot of people helping open restaurants, I think you're gonna see that trend in the next 5 to 10 years.
[00:06:39] Susan Barry: Interesting. Well, let's go back in time a little bit. Take us back to your first GM role at the Broadmoor which is an absolutely amazing, spectacular, magical hotel in Colorado Springs. What did you get wrong there and what finally clicked?
[00:06:58] Christin Marvin: I don't know if anything clicked. Just a little context, I was 24. I was going to school full-time, working at the hotel full-time, and I had gotten a marketing degree. And I was looking for jobs. I didn't know what I wanted to do and everything that I was looking at in marketing was paying less than half of what I was making as a cocktail server at the hotel. And I loved what I did. So I just kind of naively walked up to the food and beverage director and said, I wanna do this for the rest of my life. I knew I wanted to be a lifer in the industry at 24. I was like, “How do I do it?” He just said, “Go through the management training program.” I was like, “Great. That sounds easy.” So I went through the training program. I got my binder. Again, I was 24, 25 years old and I marched right up to him and I said, “Okay, I'm ready to be a GM now.” And they said, “Why don't you go spend a few months first as an AGM, working under one of the most successful GMs on the property. And I did that. I had applied for the GM position of my cocktail bar that I was serving at. Before I applied for a GM, they said, “No, we're not gonna give it to you yet. Go work as an AGM for a little bit. Get some experience under your belt”. That lasted 90 days and then they got rid of the GM that they hired for the cocktail bar and they put me in position up there. Now, awful decision at the time, I was very persistent though, I didn't know how to go from working with your peers to all of a sudden managing them and leading them? I had no sense of financial acumen. I would sit in the weekly manager meetings with all the GMs from the other outlets. I had no idea what they were talking about. I was intimidated and didn't feel confident asking questions. I was going out with the staff after work. I was building the schedule based on favoritism. All these stupid, I didn't know how to handle HR things. I was there having confrontations with the staff. It was just, you name it. What clicked for them, I would say, is they were getting ready to open a fine dining concept for the first time in a long time across the street. And they had hired a GM who worked for Danny Meyer and was incredibly successful, and that GM came over and met me at the bar and said, “Hey, come over here, come work with us in this location.” So that was the first time I took a step back. I did that a couple times in my career and what that did for me was absolutely propel me and set me up for the rest of my career.
[00:09:26] Susan Barry: You ultimately invested in a concept that was unsuccessful much later in your career. Will you talk a little bit about that and what some of your blind spots may have been going in and how you now help people avoid those same blind spots.
[00:09:46] Christin Marvin: Yeah, I was 30 years old. I was hellbent on being a managing partner or a restaurant owner in some sort of capacity. I was really hungry. That's what I wanted. I didn't necessarily care about the partners that I was working with. I didn't truly understand what partnership meant in the business. I trusted the partners that I had. I thought we had a good enough brand to be able to be successful. What I learned from that experience, though, was not to invest more than you can really afford to invest. We ended up getting our investment back, but it took about a year. And we took out a loan for that. We did not do enough market research on the concept. We took over a 60-year-old dive bar and put in an à la carte French concept. Neighborhood didn't have the price point for it. The neighborhood wasn't ready for it. They didn't want it and we had some arrogance behind the brand that thought we were gonna be able to pull people from other neighborhoods, that could afford that price point. The biggest thing that we did wrong though, was we did not listen to guest feedback. We were constantly getting complaints that people did not want à la carte, that things were too expensive, that they weren't gonna come back. Yes, they thought the service, the experience was good, but they did not want to pay for duck à l'orange and then a side of green beans and then a side of lyonnaise potatoes. And we talked about that feedback every week for months and it fell on deaf ears and we ended up closing the business.
[00:11:23] Susan Barry: So, tell me a little bit more about that feedback process. Was it that you were sharing it with your partners and they were like, “Well, these people are just Philistines, who cares about them?” Or was it more of lost in the shuffle? Does that make sense? Like tuning things going on?
[00:11:41] Christin Marvin: It was very ego-driven. When you work for a chef-driven concept, sometimes, they don't want guests to come in and modify the menu, right? So I worked at a pizza place where we couldn't do pizza, substitutions on a pizza. Doesn't that sound ridiculous? So when you're putting your ego in front of the guest experience, you're losing sight of hospitality and what you're truly there to do. And so me, little majority owner, that was like, this isn't working, this isn't working, this isn't working. And then as watching sales go down and then slowly unraveling that we were gonna have to start giving staff to other restaurants or firing people because we couldn't afford them. There were just all these signs that were pointing in the direction of failure. And apparently that was okay, for the majority partners, but I'll tell you what, that level of stress, even being a minority owner in the business when sales start to drop and you have to start having those tough conversations with people that have been loyal to you for years. Those are the most stressful conversations and to know that it could have been avoided is just really sad.
[00:12:51] Susan Barry: Well, the reason I wanted to hit on some of the lessons that you've learned in your career is that I know that they all led up to what you have done now, which is develop this independent restaurant framework. Can you talk about that framework? What is it? What does it entail?
[00:13:09] Christin Marvin: Yeah. I get really excited about it. This is basically a culmination of the things that I have learned over the last three years of coaching independent restaurant owners. The threads that they're missing in their business, and understanding what I had. As far as tools and resources available to me in the restaurant group that I helped scale from 6 to 48 in 7 years. And then another group that I was with that scaled from 6 to 7 during the pandemic. But the importance of systems, the importance of having the right people in place, that's what this framework is all about. It's really about understanding what leaders the business needs in order to be successful, instead of finding people that are loyal to you and then throwing salaries at them and creating positions for them. One is a really expensive and dangerous way to do business. The other one is very focused and intentional and expertise-driven, and that's the smart way to scale.
[00:14:14] Susan Barry: Why do you think that restaurant folks value loyalty so much. I've heard you mention it a few times already in our conversation, and I remember that from my restaurant days that like that would come up a lot in a sort of almost mafioso way. You know what I mean? Like, who cares? But why do you think it's important sometimes?
[00:14:36] Christin Marvin: The independent space can be very emotionally driven and so it feels good when somebody is loyal to you, and they've worked with you for a long time. We want to naturally reward them and give them opportunities. I think a lot of independent restaurant owners rely heavily on emotion vs data to make decisions. And that gets 'em in trouble a lot. And that is the main difference between corporate restaurants that scale really quickly and the independents that stub their toe as they scale and get bigger.
[00:15:10] Susan Barry: Post-pandemic, the restaurant business is still struggling. We talk about it on this show all the time. I think many owners are over it or getting very close to being over it. What pattern are you seeing among those who are successful at this time in a challenging environment?
[00:15:32] Christin Marvin: You're definitely right. There are two camps of people that have been in the industry for 20 or 30 years, and they're like, “Why am I at this level in my career? And yet everything is getting harder for me?” And worse, it doesn't make sense. And then there are those people that are coming up in this really challenging time, who are very well-rounded operators and who are understanding that they don't have to be the expert in marketing and IT and community and HR, but they are willing to raise their hand and say, “You know what? I'm gonna put my pride and my ego aside. I'm gonna ask for help.” So the ones that are being successful are the ones that are coming to the table and having really challenging conversations about what's not working in their business or what their shortcomings are, because when you can start to be honest about that, that's where progress happens in your business.
[00:16:31] Susan Barry: So if somebody just heard you say that and they're like, “Well, I want progress. I want my life to feel better. I'm a single-unit owner-operator type person, and I'll hire you tomorrow. What does it look like over the next few months? How do we work together?”
[00:16:47] Christin Marvin: Yeah. We are gonna make sure that the foundation you have built is crack-free and strong as possible to set you up to scale. I know a lot of owners that get bored very easily. They're like, “All right, number two, number three, let's go.” But what we do, what our process is, we really understand exactly what's happening in your business. We celebrate the wonderful things that are happening. We understand where the challenges are. We really start by looking at your core leadership team, making sure that they are a cultural fit, making sure that you have development plans in place for them, and that they're the right people to be in the right roles with your organization. If they're not, then we work on a plan of how we need to change that in the next 6 to 12 months. We help operators understand and put systems in place on how to hire, culture and how to build assessments and have measurable tools. So again, we can take that emotion out of it. So that they can start building a bench of talent and then be able to scale internally and keep that culture and those systems intact. We also look at where accountability and communication is lacking in the organization and arm the operators, the owners with tools and resources. I'm doing this because I want it this way. It's more about this is what the business needs to be successful. So we teach them how to be coaches and how to set boundaries and how to delegate so that the owners can be in the role that they want and have choice of where they spend their time and their energy.
[00:18:31] Susan Barry: Speaking of coaching, I know you do live coaching on your podcast. What is a coaching question that you wish more owners would ask before they add a unit to their business?
[00:18:43] Christin Marvin: Oh, there are so many. Okay, I'd say two. What do I need to say no to before I say yes to this? We can't say yes. We can't just keep saying yes to things. That's how we burn out. We have to have a strategic plan in place in order to successfully scale a business. And when I say we, I'm talking myself right now, too. I need to take my own advice on this.
[00:18:46] Susan Barry: You don't have to keep it to one. Ooh, that's so good. Say more about that. I'm taking this as coaching for myself. Like, “Okay, I have some stuff I'm planning for next year. What do I have to say no to say yes to that?
[00:19:26] Christin Marvin: Yeah. We have to learn, we have to understand how to set boundaries and that is a very difficult skill for people in the restaurant business to learn and it's such an important one. The other one is, what's the end goal here? Do you have an exit strategy? The more successful you become, the more opportunities are gonna come your way. Of course, those real estate developers are gonna say, “We want this brand in this neighborhood. Hey, I've got a perfect location for you. Hey, I'll pay for all your TI.” That's what's happening right now. People are like giving deals away, like we've never seen before.
[00:20:03] Susan Barry: Wait, what is TI?
[00:20:04] Christin Marvin: Oh, tenant improvements. Landlords will typically charge restaurants a certain percent or a certain amount per square foot in order to make improvements to the space. Now they're just giving TI away because they are desperate for restaurants to come into spaces.
[00:20:22] Susan Barry: No, to prospective restaurant owners to negotiate that in your lease.
[00:20:27] Christin Marvin: Totally. And there's a lot of second-generation spaces coming up, which look really attractive from a financial perspective. However, my point with that is you've gotta understand why you're scaling. What's the goal? And if it doesn't work out, what's the plan? Because I have a few clients now that are working on their exit strategy, and some of them have waited till the last minute, where they're burned out. They can't take it anymore. They have forgotten their purpose. They don't know why they're in the industry. And now we're looking at what is the next 3 to 5 years look like in the business before they can get out. This is not a quick 3 to 6 months. Oh, I'm out of here. Yeah. That's a whole another topic, but you've gotta understand what the value of your business is and actually what you can sell.
[00:21:20] Susan Barry: Certainly not and get what it's worth. We like to make sure that our listeners come away from every single episode of Top Floor with a couple of practical, tangible tips to try either in their businesses, their restaurants, or in their personal lives. Training programs in independent restaurants, at least in my experience now, it's been a minute, right? Are often non-existent. How can someone who's listening to this, like, “Dude, I don't have time to do a six-week manager training program.” What's the leanest, easiest training program you would recommend for a small indie company?
[00:22:01] Christin Marvin: It's a bigger pain point than it's ever been because we are seeing post-pandemic so many people coming into the industry with no experience. It is really putting pressure on training more than we've ever seen, and it's putting pressure on leadership. I think a lot of owners sometimes overthink what a training program needs to be. Get something in place, and the best way to do that is to delegate to your trainers. If you have a stellar manager in your restaurant group, ask them to start building a training program. With AI, you can sit down and do it in a matter of minutes, have your lead server start taking notes, even if that person starts to write things down on a piece of paper. Again, you can take a snapshot of that, put it in AI and poof, produce something. Ask your lead buser to do the same. Ask your lead bartender to do the same. Get some things in place so that you can actually start using these tools and then have those lead people that have created these tools get feedback from the people that they're training. And then improve, improve, improve as you go. Just start small, but you don't need to do it all on yourself. Delegating is really hard for restaurant owners. You've gotta utilize the team members in your group right now that you've got, and the more you empower them, the more their leadership is gonna fire up. The more you're developing them, the more engaged they're gonna be, and the longer you're gonna retain them.
[00:23:28] Susan Barry: Do you think it's fair to say when it comes to training in restaurants that done is better than perfect? Like, having something in place is better than waiting till it's absolutely perfect?
[00:23:39] Christin Marvin: A hundred percent. I talked to a couple of operators, and they're like, “We can't even think about training right now because it's such a massive project.” And there's nothing more important than the guest experience. And that starts with a great employee experience. So if you think that training is just too big right now, or you're not prioritizing it. It's just backwards thinking. It doesn't make any sense.
[00:23:59] Susan Barry: Well, in your training, whether you have a program or not, so you might as well have a program. So, restaurant turnover is twice that of other sectors. It hovers around 80%. What do you think is a retention habit? A general manager or owner can start that will improve turnover.
[00:24:24] Christin Marvin: The number one thing that I recommend for existing employees is to make sure that the management team is spending 15 minutes with one person once a week doing one-on-ones. Ask them how they're doing, what they love about their job and what they wanna learn more about. Start developing them. No, just pick one person. Depending on the size of your staff, you've gotta understand what your bandwidth is. What those one-on-ones are going to do for you is they're gonna help you identify problems before they're even problems. So it's gonna calm the chaos of your organization and it's gonna make you more proactive, which is something that is really rare in the restaurant business. It's gonna help you retain your team, keep 'em more engaged because they know that you care about them. You're giving them an outlet to voice their excitement, the wins and their frustrations with you, which is really, really important to leadership. It's helping you work on your active listening skills and it impacts the guest experience, which is just magical. So, can't stress that resource enough with restaurants, it's the most important thing.
[00:24:44] Susan Barry: Wait, do you mean 15 minutes with every member of your team? You talked earlier about the fact that you are making so much more money as a cocktail waitress than at the professional marketing jobs that you are being offered. Servers making more than owners is a flashpoint in the industry. How do you design compensation incentives that are fair, transparent, they drive performance? One of the things that comes up all the time is tipping is wildly out of control, and yet people wanna tip kitchen stuff like there's so much around compensation in restaurants that's tricky and weird and complicated. If you could start it over from scratch, what would you do?
[00:26:24] Christin Marvin: The model is really broken right now, especially in Denver. Minimum wage is gonna hit 19 an hour next, next month, or in January. You've gotta do your research. You've got to understand what's working in your business and what's not working in your business before you open that next location. It's important to go through and write a budget of what can we afford and how are we going to compensate employees. So that the end goal is to be able to develop them into leaders, to make leadership look attractive for them, both at work and at home, so that they can live the life that they wanna live. And how do we create compensation packages that take care of both our people in the business? And that is really tough.
[00:27:13] Susan Barry: The point that you just made is so interesting. So both my sister and I were early in our careers. We worked in restaurants. She ended up owning a bunch of restaurants. I went the hotel route, the much better route, in my opinion. I'm just kidding. But we talk about this all the time, that we were so hot to be the boss that we left tons of money on the table because we wanted the manager title and so we traded tips for a salary. That was absolute foolish nonsense. How do you get people to say, “Yeah, no, it's cool. I'll take a 50% pay cut and lead this team of yahoos.” You know what I mean?
[00:27:58] Christin Marvin: Totally. It really depends on your concept and it really depends on your people that you're attracting and what stage of their life they're in. When I was at the hotel and I was 24, 25, yes, I was making 50 grand as a cocktail server. I chose to make $28,000 a year and start working 80 hours a week, nights and holidays all the time.
[00:28:22] Susan Barry: Me too. Why did we do that? Are we stupid?
[00:28:22] Christin Marvin: Because at that time, I lived in a place where I could afford to do that. And I wanted to grow in my career. I wanted to do this forever, and so I knew that the longer I stayed in, the more I developed my skills, I would make more money as I moved up the rank. So I was willing to make that sacrifice. Now, there are a lot of people in this day and age that are not willing to make that sacrifice. And so when I talked earlier about the work that we do, it's about designing your organizational chart and your leadership team so that you are very intentional with where you're spending that money. Instead of a CFO, maybe you just hire a fractional CFO so that you can pay your managers more money. Same with fractional CMOs, fractional IT. There are so many different options for you now, which is really, really exciting. But again, you've gotta think about what development looks like for a server coming in the door who eventually wants to grow with the company.
[00:29:28] Susan Barry: We have reached the fortune-telling portion of our show, so you are gonna have to predict the future and then we will see if you got it right. What is a prediction that you have about the future of independent restaurants?
[00:29:41] Christin Marvin: I think that what we're gonna see over the next 3 to 5 years is guest craving, an in-person sit-down, wonderful guest experience. I think that convenience will always be there, but I think that because of technology and phones and just post-pandemic and us doing so many things on Zoom, people are gonna crave that in-person connection because it's going to be, which is so weird to say this, it's gonna start to become rare.
[00:30:18] Susan Barry: It already is, but it's too expensive.
[00:30:18] Christin Marvin: I know. It is expensive. It is. And so I think that, I think that guests are gonna start challenging restaurants to offer a better experience. And I think a little bit of it is happening now. But I also think if restaurants wanna start to attract Gen Z, they're going to have to offer them something that they have never experienced before.
[00:30:41] Susan Barry: I can't wait for that to happen. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about how independent restaurants scale and lead their teams, what would it be?
[00:30:54] Christin Marvin: I don't think that there's enough emphasis on taking care of people. And what I mean by that is, yes, there's a financial component to it, but it's just about slowing down and having those consistent conversations with people about how they're doing, how they're feeling, what they're loving, are they in the role that they wanna be in, and what do they wanna learn more about so that they can keep developing people? I hear a lot of people and it just infuriates me, say, “Oh, I can't find good people.” You have a group of people that have said yes to working for your company for a reason. Find out what that reason is and cultivate it and nurture it. And turn them into the leaders that you need in the organization.
[00:31:39] Susan Barry: Oh, that's so good. Okay, folks, before we tell Christin goodbye, we are going to head down to the loading dock where all of the best stories get told.
Elevator voice announces, “Going down.”
[00:31:55] Susan Barry: Christin, what is a story you would only tell on the loading dock?
[00:31:59] Christin Marvin: I had the pleasure of meeting Anthony Bourdain back in the day. He came in to film, no reservations at one of our restaurants in Denver. And in preparation for that, we bought a baby lamb. And I had never been this close to like actual butchery before, but the lamb came to the restaurant and we didn't have anywhere he was alive. He was very cute. We didn't know where to put him. So we put 'em in our plastic linen bin outside. We cleared all the linens out and put 'em in there. And all the staff were super excited 'cause Bourdain was coming, but we all came downstairs and around the corners to the restaurant to check out this cute little baby lamb. And then we served Anthony Bourdain lamb brains 'cause that's one of his secrets.
[00:32:51] Susan Barry: What? No, no. Why did you tell me this horrible story? Poor baby.
[00:33:00] Christin Marvin: Meeting Anthony Bourdain was great. He was very tall, very quiet. Just you know, he was just very, very gracious and kind of shy off in the corner, but I don't know if it was more memorable for me to meet him for a second or the lamb.
[00:33:21] Susan Barry: I bet. Did you taste it?
[00:33:22] Christin Marvin: No. We didn't have the opportunity. There was just too many things going on with the cameras and all that. I would have to say, think what you will about me, but that's the closest I've ever been to actually understanding where my food comes from.
[00:33:45] Susan Barry: Well, I have to go, weep in the corner now. So, Christin Marvin, thank you so much for being here. I know that our listeners got great tips. They are going to read your books that we will link in the show notes and I really appreciate you riding with us to the top floor.
[00:34:04] Christin Marvin: Thanks so much, Susan.
[00:34:06] Susan Barry: Thank you for listening. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast.com/episode/222. Jonathan Albano is our editor, producer, and all-around genius. He even wrote and performed our theme song with vocals by Cameron Albano. You can subscribe to Top Floor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen, and your rating or review will go a long way in helping us give you more of what you like.
[00:34:42] Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Top Floor podcast at www.topfloorpodcast.com. Have a hospitality marketing question? Reach us at 850-404-9630 to be featured in a future episode.