Transcript: Episode 199: Scorpion Snack
LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:
APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | TOPFLOOR.COM
[00:00:00] Susan Barry: This is Top Floor episode 199. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast.com/episode/199.
[00:00:14] Narrator: Welcome to Top Floor with Susan Barry. This weekly podcast ride up to the top floor features tangible tips and excellent stories from the experts and characters who elevate hospitality. And now your host and elevator operator, Susan Barry.
[00:00:32] Susan Barry: Welcome to the show. Chuck Kelly is a veteran hotelier whose career spans decades and continents from early food and beverage jobs at Marriott to leading international development operations in the Caribbean and Latin America. With hands-on experience in operations, sales, and executive leadership, Chuck truly understands the business from every angle. He brings that expertise to Cayuga Hospitality Consultants, a group of independent professionals who offer tailored above property support to hospitality companies of every size. Full disclosure, I am a partner in Cayuga and have a financial interest in the organization. Today we are going to talk about problem solving in independent hotels, the surprising upside of calling a consultant, and why implementation is everything. But before we jump in, we need to answer the call button.
Call button rings
The emergency call button is our hotline for hospitality professionals and in this case just nosy people who have burning questions. If you would to submit a question, you can call or text me at (850) 404-9630. Today's question was submitted by Leno. Here's what Leno has to say, “If I want to be a general manager, is it better to climb the ranks on the room side or in food and beverage?” You are uniquely positioned to answer this question. What's your advice for Leno?
[00:02:19] Chuck Kelley: My advice would be whichever discipline you are best suited for, because both the food and beverage disciplines have grown and developed general managers who are excellent.
[00:02:37] Susan Barry: Do you think that people need to try both or do you think it makes sense to just sort of climb the ladder on the side that you like the best?
[00:02:45] Chuck Kelley: I don't think there's a need to do both. You get your solid operational experience in either discipline. I wouldn't ignore the other discipline. I would stay in touch with it and understand it. I don't think there's an actual need to work both.
[00:03:06] Susan Barry: Interesting. Your first job was in Hawaii after your military service. How did that initial experience impact you or shape you in your approach to hospitality going forward?
[00:03:24] Chuck Kelley: Well, first of all, I arrived in Honolulu with just a few hundred dollars in my pocket. So I was, I was basically broke. And I needed a job and I managed to get introduced to. Got me a job as a bus boy at the Sheridan Waikiki, the Hano Hano room on the 30th floor overlooking all of Waikiki. So that was fantastic. And over the years I grew from being a bus boy to a captain, and I found that I really liked the business. So I enrolled in the University of Hawaii and got my degree from the University of Hawaii in Tour and Travel. But I think to answer your question, working for tips teaches you the service mentality and the service mentality, I think, is hugely important in the lodging business,
[00:04:22] Susan Barry: What ended up making you switch from food and beverage? We were just talking about the fact that you can become a GM going through the ranks in food and beverage, but you changed to sales and marketing. What was appealing, besides the fact that sales and marketing is the superior discipline, in my opinion?
[00:04:41] Chuck Kelley: You might be a little biased, but understood.
[00:04:44] Susan Barry: I mean, maybe.
[00:04:46] Chuck Kelley: Well, to be honest, I interviewed with Marriott to get in sales and marketing. They said, thanks, but your background is food and beverage. So they offered me something in food and beverage. So I started in food and beverage always with the idea that I wanted to get in sales and marketing when the opportunity arose. After becoming a director of restaurants, I raised my hand and said, I'm ready to go to sales. And back in those days, that just wasn't done. You grew up in your discipline and you had a vertical path. So I had to go to explain to the regional vice president of the Northwest, because I was in Oregon at the time in Portland, and explain why I wanted to go into sales. And his question to me was, Mr. Kelley, why do you wanna quit working for a living and join the cocktail division?
[00:05:42] Susan Barry: Why wouldn't you wanna do that?
[00:05:47] Chuck Kelley: So apparently I gave him a good answer because he approved the transfer into sales and market.
[00:05:53] Susan Barry: So, you know, that makes me wonder something. I mean, I even remember this from sort of earlier in my career that there's a little bit of type casting, even like if you were a select service person, you stay in select service, you can't move from select to full and you know, that kind of thing. How did salespeople get started if they couldn't start in food and beverage? Like what position would be the foot in the door for sales? You know what I mean?
[00:06:23] Chuck Kelley: Back in the day, they were hiring salespeople right out of school and going directly into sales in a junior role.
[00:06:33] Susan Barry: Okay.
[00:06:34] Chuck Kelley: Which was one of the things I changed as I got into more senior jobs because I felt the ops background made a much better salesperson.
[00:06:45] Susan Barry: Totally. I agree completely.
[00:06:49] Chuck Kelley: And we would've salespeople making decisions that operations would just go bananas about because they weren't practical, they couldn't be done. And without that experience, they didn't know anybody.
[00:07:02] Susan Barry: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Well, you ended up overseeing truly massive growth for Marriott when you were executive vice president for the Caribbean and Latin America. Looking back, what do you think prepared you the most for that? Was it bussing tables in Hawaii or something else? Like, I guess what I mean is did you feel like you were prepared or was it what a lot of us have gone through in our hotel careers, a little bit of on the job training?
[00:07:33] Chuck Kelley: I would say you're never fully prepared. I think I was probably prepared to the extent possible because I grew from that crossing into sales and I became a director of marketing. I did that at a couple hotels, and then I had regional sales and marketing responsibility in the Midwest, Southern California, Arizona. Then I covered Asia Pacific in sales and marketing. And then I did my first general managers assignment in Surfers Paradise, Australia.
[00:08:10] Susan Barry: Which is just wild to me.
[00:08:12] Chuck Kelley: And then they also gave me Country Manager of Australia. It was only five hotels, but it was country manager.
[00:08:19] Susan Barry: Of Australia, of all places.
[00:08:22] Chuck Kelley: Right. And in all those above property roles, I was involved in the development process, reviewing studies and feasibilities and things like that. So when I got to Caribbean, Latin America, I was as prepared as I could be but I clearly learned on the job. If nothing else, what I learned there is Caribbean, Latin America is an entirely different culture than anything I was ever experienced in. So that was a steep learning curve.
[00:08:55] Susan Barry: Interesting. Did anyone try to tell you like, it's gonna feel different on island time or anything like that? Or, or did you just have to figure it out for yourself?
[00:09:06] Chuck Kelley: I had to figure it out for myself. And I was based in Fort Lauderdale area, covering the area. So it wasn't like I was living full time in the Caribbean or anything like that. Matter of fact, I visited the Caribbean frequently, but I was generally the only one wearing long pants on the island.
[00:09:27] Susan Barry: Amazing. Did you wear a tie and stuff?
[00:09:30] Chuck Kelley: No.
[00:09:31] Susan Barry: No, that's good. We know each other through Cayuga Hospitality Consultants. What is it and who do you serve?
[00:09:44] Chuck Kelley: Well, the way I would describe Cayuga is in a couple different ways. It's a network of independent lodging, food and beverage, and hospitality consultants. And it's more of a compliment to their individual practice. It's also what I would describe as a marketing umbrella. It adds a little bit of credibility to the individual, and by having the membership that we do and the talent that we have, it gives credibility to Cayuga. So I think it works both ways. And the second part of your question is who do we serve. Our prime prospect is owners and operators of independent hotels.
[00:10:31] Susan Barry: Why independent hotels? Why do independent or smaller chains need outside support that maybe the big guys don't need?
[00:10:40] Chuck Kelley: Well, the big guys, whether it be the brands or the the big third party management groups all have their own internal resources above property. Cayuga is made up of a lot of consultants that had that experience when they worked for the brands. So we fill that niche, that space in between the operator and the owner that doesn't exist for the independents. And you know, sometimes we can offer an objective third party perspective that would help the owner and the operator figure out what to do next and how to solve.
[00:11:22] Susan Barry: Can you talk about some of the types of problems that get brought to Cayuga consultants? Like what are the things that owners and operators are trying to solve when they come to the organization?
[00:11:37] Chuck Kelley: Anything and everything really. I mean, it could be, “My revenue is suffering,” “I need some help with the top line.” It could be “it's just not flowing down to the bottom line. So I need to look at cost controls.” Or it may be at the beginning of a project when they need a market feasibility study so they can make a good informed business decision on whether or not they should proceed with a hotel or a restaurant or whatever. Could be in a human resources from, I need to develop standard operating procedures, or I need staff training, or I need task force. And last but not least, sometimes litigation support or expertise.
[00:12:26] Susan Barry: That's a big one. You know something that I think about, and we say this in my company too, that if you are an owner or an operator of a hotel and you're faced with a problem that you don't know how to solve, and maybe you don't even know exactly what the problem is, I think that's a really good time to bring in fresh eyes. Sort of the things that don't fit into a normal org chart or you know, are kind of a one-off, maybe are something else I would say people should bring to this collection of independent consultants. Do you agree?
[00:13:05] Chuck Kelley: Absolutely. Absolutely. Sometimes it’s a difficult ask though. Because you have to first admit to yourself that I can't solve this problem by myself, which is an ego challenge.
[00:13:20] Susan Barry: Yes, for sure. A hundred percent. Well, we like to make sure that our listeners come away from every single episode of Top Floor with a couple of really practical, specific tips to try either in their businesses or in their lives. What is a common misdiagnosis you see when hotels or hotel owners try to solve problems on their own?
[00:13:48] Chuck Kelley: I think that they often see the problem or the symptom, but they don't necessarily know what the root cause of that problem is, and they may be too close to it. Sometimes there's conflicts within the organization that keep people from being honest with themselves and understanding it. And sometimes coming to the right solution is a difficult ask because it might be something internal that they have.
[00:14:31] Susan Barry: Like a lot of times the solution to the problem is maybe a personnel change that feels really scary to have to make. At least I always, every assignment I take, I think people just fire everyone and start over — no, I'm just kidding.
[00:14:50] Chuck Kelley: Well, sometimes the third party perspective that the consultant can bring helps them get clarity on the issue.
[00:14:59] Susan Barry: And it can also reinforce sort of gut feelings that you don't, you know, maybe feel like you have the expertise to make yourself, but you bring somebody else in and they're like, yep, that's exactly right. Okay. That's a relief. That makes me feel a lot better. What about getting value out of an engagement? You know, there are all kinds of, uh, obnoxious jokes about consultants borrowing your watch to tell you the time. How can owners get the most value out of an engagement with a consultant?
[00:15:33] Chuck Kelley: I think they have to be very precise in the beginning. You need to negotiate a very specific scope of services and come to agreement on a price that both the consultant and the client feel is fair. And once they do that, I think it's fair to challenge the consultant to deliver the results that they agreed to. Don't micromanage the consultant. Let the consultant do his or her job, and then I think you're gonna get the value that you asked for.
[00:16:13] Susan Barry: What about advice for hotel leaders who are hesitant to do this? Hesitant to spend money on outside help.
[00:16:23] Chuck Kelley: Know what you don't know. But also you have, I think, a specific outcome in mind. First, you have to come to grips with, I don’t know what this is, but you should have an idea of where you wanna be if it gets solved. And if you're the operator, make sure you get the owner involved before you make the decision to hire the consultant and it shows up on the P&L.
[00:16:53] Susan Barry: Absolutely true. I'm thinking about something that I've faced as a consultant before, and I'm gonna ask you this question. I still don't know how to answer it, but something that has come up for me is the owner or like end-user client is looking for a result that I don't control. So, for example, can you give me like — this is random, not even the type of consulting that I necessarily offer — but let's say, can you give me some ideas for increasing occupancy at my hotel? In your agreement, you need to guarantee an increase of occupancy of 15%. I can give advice, but I can't make the people in the hotel do that work. So how would you recommend working around that? Or should I? I mean, should I be able to say, “Yes, in fact, I can guarantee 15% occupancy”? Does that make sense, that question?
[00:17:59] Chuck Kelley: Yes. I would never make the guarantee because I think I would say to the client, I can give you a plan, and I can give you expected outcomes, but you have to execute the plan. So if something falls apart in the execution, I can't be responsible for that. And I know that that may not go down extremely well but that's the reality of the situation.
[00:18:27] Susan Barry: It's a little tough. Well, and I mean, I think it gets to this idea of clients thinking that there is a magic trick to perform in order to get the outcomes versus the actual messy middle of doing the work. You know, ideas all day long. But if there's not a way to implement those ideas, you're in a very, very big trouble. Well, we have reached the fortune telling portion of our show, so now you have to predict the future, and then we will come back and see if you were right. What is a prediction that you have about the future of hospitality consulting?
[00:19:07] Chuck Kelley: Well, first of all, in these times, I think that's an entirely unfair question.
[00:19:11] Susan Barry: What do you mean? Because it's impossible to predict anything from minute to minute. Yes.
[00:19:16] Chuck Kelley: Well, especially in the way times are right now, but let me give it a shot. I think, as you said, consultants have a bad rap at times, but I think consultants like you and me, we need to focus on professionalism, our own personal integrity, we need to deliver the results that we've promised. And I think that in tough times there's a huge need for consultants even more than during normal times when businesses is coming automatically. So I think it's incumbent on consultants to take advantage of this.
[00:20:02] Susan Barry: I agree. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about how consultants are perceived, what would that be?
[00:20:13] Chuck Kelley: In simple terms, I'd say we are professionals with decades of hand-on experience in what I would call the real world, and that we're not just book smart.
[00:20:27] Susan Barry: Okay folks, before we tell Chuck goodbye, we are going to head down to the loading dock where all of the best stories get told.
Elevator voice announces, “Going down.”
Chuck, what is a story you would only tell me on the loading dock?
[00:20:46] Chuck Kelley: Well, I don't know if I'd only tell you this on the loading dock, but I wanna tell you a story about deep fried scorpions.
[00:20:55] Susan Barry: Okay. Take it away.
[00:20:59] Chuck Kelley: Stinger included.
[00:21:01] Susan Barry: Oh, no.
[00:21:03] Chuck Kelley: Yes. So back in the day, when Marriott didn't have any hotels in China, we were on a visit to Shanghai and we were invited to a dinner with prospective owners and investors at a very swanky hot floor Shanghai establishment. And they were obviously trying to impress us with their local delicacies. So out come the deep fried scorpions is the first course.
[00:21:36] Susan Barry: No sir.
[00:21:38] Chuck Kelley: Yes ma'am.
[00:21:39] Susan Barry: Did you eat one?
[00:21:40] Chuck Kelley: Refusing to eat one would be an insult. It's not an option
[00:21:46] Susan Barry: What did it taste like?
[00:21:48] Chuck Kelley: Well, you know, what they say tastes like chicken.
[00:21:52] Susan Barry: No, nuh-uh! Did it really? Did it just taste like fried? Do you know what I mean? Like just sort of like batter.
[00:21:59] Chuck Kelley: It was crunchy.
[00:22:01] Susan Barry: Oh my gosh. And. The stinger was attached, but it wasn't dangerous to eat?
[00:22:06] Chuck Kelley: No, I mean, they cooked all the poison out of it.
[00:22:09] Susan Barry: Oh, that is so gross. I was in Mexico where they often serve fried grasshoppers as a little snack at a bar. And this is the conclusion that I have arrived at: I would eat ground grasshopper in anything all day long, like everyone talks about it's an excellent source of protein, no problem. But the feeling of a leg of a grasshopper in my mouth is the most disgusting thought process that I could ever have in my— and now you've added scorpion to the mix. So thank you very much. I really, really do not appreciate it, Chuck Kelly,
[00:22:51] Chuck Kelley: I would tell you that the double scotch I had to beginning probably helped.
[00:22:58] Susan Barry: There you go. That was the medicine that you needed to make the poison scorpion go down. Honestly, don't
[00:23:03] Chuck Kelley: I honestly, don't remember what else we had for dinner. It was quite good.
[00:23:08] Susan Barry: Excellent. Well, Chuck, thank you so much for being here. I know that our listeners learned a lot about what consultants do, and I really appreciate you riding with us to the top floor.
[00:23:20] Chuck Kelley: Thank you for the invitation.
[00:23:23] Susan Barry: Thanks for listening. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast.com/episode/199. Jonathan Albano is our editor, producer, and all around Genius. He even wrote and performed our theme song with vocals by Cameron Albano. You can subscribe to Top Floor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen and your rating or review will go a long way in helping us give you more of what you like.
[00:23:59] Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Top Floor Podcast at www.topfloorpodcast.com. Have a hospitality marketing question? Reach us at 8504049630 to be featured in a future episode.