Transcript: Episode 103: Comedy Legend Thwarted
LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:
[00:00:00] (Top Floor Theme plays)
Susan Barry: This is Top Floor episode 103. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast. com forward slash episode forward slash 103.
[00:00:13] Narrator: Welcome to Top Floor with Susan Barry. This weekly podcast ride up to the top floor features tangible tips and excellent stories from the experts and characters who elevate hospitality. And now your host and elevator operator: Susan Barry.
[00:00:32] Susan Barry: Welcome to the show. Janelle Johnson grew up in Miami, went to school in Maryland and DC, and has lived in New York, London, and DMV over her career. An avid traveler, her daughter had already visited 18 countries by age six, which has me beat by double and I am far more than six. Janelle is a former investment banker and spent a long time working on mergers, acquisitions, and other types of deals.
[00:01:08] Now, as leader of PwC's travel, transportation, and hospitality practice group, Janelle helps clients with strategic planning for growth and investment and advises on business wide risks and opportunities. In other words, she helps the hospitality industry understand where to spend, where to save, and how to plan for the future.
[00:01:36] One of Janelle's areas of interest is how hospitality businesses need to invest in modernizing legacy technology. That's something we talk about on Top Floor all the time. So today we are going to talk about how that impacts labor, investor confidence, and guest experience. But before we do, we need to answer the call button.
(Call Button sound effect plays)
[00:02:04] The emergency call button is our hotline for hospitality professionals and random strangers off the street who have burning questions. If you would like to submit a question, you can call or text me a voice memo to 850 404 9630. Today's question was submitted by Priyanka, and here's what Priyanka has to say.
[00:02:31] Susan Barry: “Since you talk about education and careers a lot, I thought I'd ask, is it better to get a specialized degree or a more general one?”
So this comes up on the show and Janelle, you have more degrees than I do. So I think I'm going to ask you first, and then I'll give my opinion after that. What do you think?
[00:02:54] Jeanelle Johnson: So I think it is better to have a generalized degree and then fundamentally fulfill your objectives and purpose by taking on niche careers throughout your journey. So I go general and you can always go deep later, but having that general perspective, I think, is a good foundation.
[00:03:13] Susan Barry: I love that opinion and I completely agree. The only thing I would add is something that I've been thinking about so much lately as my nieces enter and graduate from college. And that is the idea that the career that these people are going to have who are in school right now doesn't exist yet. And so there is no such thing as job training in higher education. You just have to learn how to think and show that you can like do what you said you were going to do from start to finish by getting a degree. Other than that, follow what's interesting to you because I don't think you're getting ready for any kind of job that is on the market right now.
[00:04:00] Jeanelle Johnson: Yeah, and I'm nodding feverishly because I have a 14 year old so that that daughter who'd been to 18 countries by the time she was six is now 14 and starting high school. And so we have that conversation in our household very often about, okay, what do you need to do to prepare? And right now it's all about learning, just learning and learning how to learn and having a growth mindset. And I think that's very general.
[00:04:23] Susan Barry:100 percent true. This leads me nicely into my next question for you, which is this: When I was growing up as the child of teachers, I never heard of consulting. Like I don't think I ever even heard that word until I was an adult, either for the big four, like what you do or in a niche area like what I do. How did you even know that that was a thing, and how did you end up going that route?
[00:04:55] Jeanelle Johnson: So like you, I had no idea what consulting was. Um, I'm a first generation American. Uh, my fam- my parents immigrated from Jamaica in their twenties. Uh, my mother's career was as a hairdresser and my parents split up when- when I was really young. And so I was raised by a single parent, immigrant, first-generation American. Um, and so honestly consulting, I'm still figuring out what that actually means.
[00:05:22] Um, but I, I had no concept of consulting. I'd never heard of a big, big four. I think it was probably big eight when I was coming up through, through life and now it's four. Um, but needless to say, I think what I, I learned is, you know, having great grace and gratitude, which was my moth-, which is what I learned from my mother, um, has prepared me to do just about anything.
[00:05:47] And the beautiful thing about consulting is, it's a really, it's a choose your own adventure type of career path. And I think that's what had me gravitate towards consulting. But you know what I would say to folks is, you know, a career path and consulting can be whatever you choose. And the beautiful thing about someplace like a big four is we do just about everything, so there's lots of opportunity to pivot, learn, grow, develop. Which is, kind of goes back to what I said on the previous question about growth mindset. I think that's what's really attractive about a career in consulting.
[00:06:21] Susan Barry: Speaking of choosing your own adventure, how did you choose the particular adventure you're involved in right now being part of and heading up the travel, transportation, and hospitality team within PwC?
[00:06:38] Jeanelle Johnson: So it's a little bit full circle for me. Um, actually coming out of grad school. So I got my MBA in finance and entrepreneurship, I actually applied for a job in the finance rotation program at a large brand. Um, I wanted the job so badly that I tanked the interview. Like it was, it was awful.
[00:06:56] Susan Barry: Oh no!
[00:07:00] Jeanelle Johnson: It's like my brain just emptied itself as I went into the interview. And as they were asking me questions, I was like “from a 10,000 foot view” - like there was no specificity, no detail. I literally awful, awful, awful. Clearly I did not get that job. Um, which I shouldn't have gotten that job. Fortunately for me, I ended up doing investment banking. So clearly I was not entirely mindless because I was. you know, able to successfully pivot towards investment banking.
[00:07:29] Susan Barry: Still do math problems. Just maybe not describe them in an interview super well.
[00:07:32] Jeanelle Johnson: Definitely not at the ripe age of 25.
[00:07:36] Susan Barry: Right!
[00:07:37] Jeanelle Johnson: Uh, which thankfully I have a lot more experience under my belt now. Um, so fast forward to, you know, a few years ago at the firm. I've been working in, um, supporting private equity and consumer markets businesses pretty much my entire career, and we had a partner who had been leading the sector who was near retirement. And they were looking for someone with the capability, the credibility, the… someone who's willing to just throw themselves at any sort of problem and learn quickly um, and who's really strong at relationships. Which, I think in- in this particular sector - travel, transportation, hospitality - it's all about relationships.
[00:08:16] It's all about, you know, building trust quickly. And so the firm saw those characteristics in myself and so I spent some some time with that, uh gentleman who was retiring and really spent time educating myself. The travel/transportation/hospitality ecosystem is extremely complex, right? If we think about the quantum of stakeholders in the ecosystem, I mean there should be master classes I mean there are master classes, right? There are whole schools dedicated towards hotels.
[00:08:45] Susan Barry: And still people don't get it. Like, you can get a four year degree in hotel management and have no clue what the uh, three-legged stool of who runs a hotel really is.
[00:08:57] Jeanelle Johnson: And I think that that layer of complexity, I mean, you would be surprised. Everyone assumes that the brands own the hotels, right? And they don't, by and large, they don't anymore. And the business model has evolved so, so much. And so over the past few years after, um, the firm asked me to take on this role, it really was about educating myself on the industry itself. Um, obviously I like to travel. My daughter's been to, you know, More than 18 countries now.
[00:09:24] Um, and so taking on this role for the firm was really about capabilities. Um, and that's another beautiful thing about consulting. It's, it's very much a capability and they kind of throw stuff at you and see what sticks. And, uh, fortunately for me, travel, transportation and hospitality is, is something that stuck.
[00:09:42] And more of a full circle, I actually worked in food and beverage in, uh, in college. And so, um, you know, service is in my blood, uh, whether it's, you know, in the F and B space or my mother was obviously an entrepreneur in the service industry. And so service has always been in my blood. And I think travel transportation and hospitality is all about service.
[00:10:03] Susan Barry: So true relationships and service at the end of the day, and hopefully some upgraded technology, which is what we're going to talk about. You wrote in Hotel Business Magazine about the fact that hotel companies haven't really prioritized updating these legacy systems that are 20, 30, 50, 60 years old. And, you know, this is a favorite topic of mine and a favorite topic of people in the industry. Can you give some examples of what needs to change and why this sort of “tech debt” needs to be paid? And why now maybe?
[00:10:47] Jeanelle Johnson: So I would say that the, why the tech debt needs to be paid and why now is consumer preferences, right? If you think about it, I also have a 10 year old son. He's a digital native. He picks up the phone, the iPhone, and he can work those buttons better than anyone.
[00:11:04] I mean, I was like, “Oh, let me show you.” He's like, “No, I've got this mom.” Like, “No, I don't, I don't need your help.” But like, he, he can figure all that- he actually just built his own PC, right? At 10.
[00:11:15] Susan Barry: Holy mackerel.
[00:11:17] Jeanelle Johnson: These are the generation of folks that are coming up and they have expectations for you to be able to, um - if I'm going to check into a hotel, why does it take 10 minutes to assign me a room? Why am I not recognized as the top tier program member in the loyalty program immediately upon arrival? Why is it that I'm supposed to have, you know, some amenity in my room because I'm top tier and then I have to go up, it's not there. I have to go back down, you know, that sort of evolution of customer preference.
[00:11:52] I think the demands are there from these generations to be technologically advanced. How we got here is, this is an age old problem in multiple industries - build versus buy. I think historically there's always been a philosophy around building your own technology and to build technology historically, it costs a lot of money.
[00:12:13] It also costs a lot of money to maintain. The fact of the matter is technology has evolved. People are moving from on-prem solutions or on-premise solutions to cloud-based solutions. And those cloud-based solutions hopefully allow for a greater innovation in a, in a faster timeframe. So I think people struggle with building versus buying, knowing that if they buy something, it's not necessarily customized to themselves.
[00:12:39] And as we said, the, the hospitality sector and the ecosystem in hospitality is very complicated. So it can sometimes be difficult to say, “How can I take this off the shelf technology and customize it for my business in a cost effective manner? Maybe I'll just go build something else, but if I build something, I'm going to want to use it for 50 years.” Right?
[00:12:56] Susan Barry: And we're not experts. We're not developers. I don't understand the notion that any individual hotel company or brand or owner is that unique and that much different from all 70,000 others in the United States. Like that doesn't compute to me. Ah-ha, see what I did there? Um, if you were going to give someone advice, what would you say? Build versus buy? Or does it depend on the situation?
[00:13:28] Jeanelle Johnson: It depends on the situation, but I think there's a lot of best in class technologies that are currently available and that have the infrastructure to be supported, right? We just, you just talked about the fact that we're not experts. Well, these technology companies, they are, in fact, experts, right? So the notion of them being able to constantly be innovative in a way that is native to them as a, as a business is something to capitalize on.
[00:13:58] So I would say in today's environment, buying may have its advantage as long as you can get things like data privacy correct, you can get responsible data usage correct, things like cyber security correct, right? You want to make sure those sort of responsible governance elements are in place to feel like you're secure in what you're you're using, ultimately.
[00:14:18] But I think buying given the expertise and how things are rapidly moving, and that part gets back to the sort of technical debt. How did we get here? The world is moving faster, right? So what worked 50 years ago just doesn't cut it today, and it's probably going to be obsolete a lot quicker than you think. Um, so just kind of wrapper around all of that together, but I would say buying right now, given the pace of change, is probably the better move.
[00:14:50] Susan Barry: I wholeheartedly agree. Let's see if I can get you to answer a question I disagree with you about because so far I'm just like aggressively nodding my head.
[00:15:01] Hospitality is basically never not in the midst of a labor shortage. Before the pandemic, things were rough. They got rougher during the pandemic, and I don't think that we've recovered yet. It's definitely more serious now. Industry leaders, I think, talk a lot about the PR problem that we have, that we have painted the picture that you have to work 24 hours a day and 10 days on without a break and you know, all of this sort of like horrible quality of life style stuff. How do you think that technology plays a role in either causing or solving this talent crisis that we're in right now?
[00:15:47] Jeanelle Johnson: So I'm the eternal optimist. So I'm going to talk about solving versus causing the problem. So I think technology is leverageable in a number of ways. One thing is dynamic scheduling, right? You talked about this “always on” concept. Well, with dynamic scheduling, which can be enabled by things like AI. I think you can't have a conversation now without talking about AI. But there's technology solutions that allow you to dynamically schedule, um, people's work so that they can moderate their availability, right?
[00:16:19] Why do you need to have an eight hour shift anymore? Why can't you do a four hour A.M. shift, come home, get your kids from school, put them to bed, and then get go back - if you if you're so inclined to do so, right? And really think about how you navigate those lifestyle preferences for different generations that are currently in the workforce.
[00:16:42] Um, we have about five different generations in the workforce right now that all have different needs. So things like dynamic scheduling, which could be enabled by technology, is one way to help potentially solve the labor shortage. Another is, um, taking away those sort of manual things that people do in the job that take a lot of time, but don't necessarily add as much value.
[00:17:06] So really using technology to automate those tasks that are wrote in routine so that people can focus on value added. I think that will improve job, um, satisfaction, right? Improve the fact that you feel like you're making a contribution and that the things you're doing are value added. And maybe the compensation comes with that, right?
[00:17:28] The more value added things you do, the more you tend to get compensated. You know, we, we tend to gravitate towards that and this, um, in, in the U.S. And then in terms of the types of jobs, I think job mobility is also really important. Knowing that you have the ability to start as a dishwasher and potentially become a GM, right? And that's something that I think is really unique to the hospitality industry that doesn't necessarily get as much good press as it should is the fact that you can start, you know, as a housekeeper or dishwasher and make your way up to GM, and make your way up to potentially the CEO of a company, right? It is a place that you can start with a job and have a career.
[00:18:08] Susan Barry: Absolutely true. And I think that's one of our biggest selling points. On the flip side of that, and to your point about scheduling, I also think that we don't do a great job of telling the story of how this is a great industry if your life is not your job. If you want something where you can go, do your work, clock out, and not think about it again until the next time you clock in, there are so many great options in hospitality for those types of positions. Either one - huge career or huge outside of work life that you want to spend, you know, throwing pottery or whatever it is that you want to spend your time on.
[00:18:49] We've just experienced the hottest summer on record. How's that for a segue? At the same time, carbon emission reporting requirements are getting much more complicated, much more detailed. Um, I think there's the EU's Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive is potentially going to require any hotel company that does business in Europe to start publishing details about their environmental impact as soon as two years from now in 2025.
[00:19:25] What do you think the implications of those types of requirements are? I mean, along with, you know, the pressure that creates from investors, guests, employees, et cetera. How does all of that play in?
[00:19:38] Jeanelle Johnson: I think it's, it's actually, you know, there's there's two schools of thought, right? There's a school of thought in terms of, “Will the regulatory mandates take away from all the good things we're already doing?” Because it shifts our focus to having to, um, respond to something that's regulatory required versus just doing good in the world.
[00:19:56] Um, but there's also like, you know, dog wagging the tail or tail wagging the dog. I'm not really good at best with cliches, but there's an element of “Sometimes you don't do enough until you're forced to,” right? And I think there's an element of the government and, uh, governmental authority saying we're not doing enough.
[00:20:21] If we think about some of the goals around, um, GHG, greenhouse gas emissions, and people to go carbon neutral by a certain time period. I think at one point it was like 2010, then it was 2020, and then people were saying 2030. And now it's 2050, 2050, right? So that keeps getting shifted out.
[00:20:40] Susan Barry: We’re going to be dead before it happens!
[00:20:43] Jeanelle Johnson: Exactly. Is it going to happen in our lifetime or not? Right? And so it's, it's a little bit of, I think, uh, regulatory pressure to do the things that we're committing to do in a way that's transparent, traceable, organized, thoughtful, and ultimately you're accountable for it. So I do sense that there's a shift in prioritization. There's a way that businesses are thinking about these sorts of metrics and things that they put out into the hemisphere - pun intended. See what I did there? In a, uh, more thoughtful way as a result of the regulatory.
[00:21:22] Susan Barry: We're sort of dancing around the topic of ESG, but that is the root, I think, of where a lot of ESG conversation is coming. People talk about this, but my sense is that the vast majority of hoteliers, whether they are leaders or line staff are at best probably confused about what that means. Could you talk about how environmental social and governance programs and policies play out in the hotel business specifically?
[00:21:56] Jeanelle Johnson: Sure, so we've we've spoken a lot about environmental, right? Which is sustainability, and greenhouse gas, and carbon emissions, and scope one, scope two, scope three, and I'm gonna- talking gobbly goop. Um, that is very nuanced and and oversimplifying the E.
[00:22:12] It's funny though people tend to confuse the E, “environmental” and the S, which is “social,” which you’re right - they think the S is “sustainability.” No, it's “social,” right? And social really comes down to people, which is super important in hospitality in particular because we're a people business, right? Tech enabled, human led, people first.
[00:22:35] And by social, it's things like diversity, equity, and inclusion. It's things like, “How am I treating my workers? How am I providing them benefits? How am I providing equitable treatment of all the folks that work in my industry?” And one beautiful thing about hospitality is it's fairly diverse at certain levels.
[00:22:56] I think there's an element of addressing diversity in different parts of the organizations, frankly, and that S part of ESG is is really centered around, “How are we doing on our, uh, statistics around human capital?” The G part is “governance,” right? And if we think about governance, it's things like, do we have policies and procedures in place to make sure we're operating in a thoughtful manner? That we're adhering to regulatory, uh, requirements? Such as CSRD, which you mentioned earlier.
[00:23:30] It's things like our audit committee. Are they doing their job for- especially in public companies? It's things like, are we following OSHA? OSHA requirements, right? Think about safety and health, uh, requirements. Are we making sure we're documenting our processes accordingly? And that we have the right controls and governance policies in place? And that we're avoiding things like key man risk?
[00:23:53] There's so many elements, like, I have this wonderful chart and I wish I had added up and could show you the different factors that fall under ESG. I think we oversimplify it to only focus on greenhouse gas. There's so much more to ESG that we, um work with clients on.
[00:24:07] Susan Barry: Can you say a little bit more about key man risk? I don't know what that is.
[00:24:10] Jeanelle Johnson: Key man risk - so say I am your um, CFO. Just, let's pretend. Um, but I don't have a succession plan for people behind me, right? All of the information and knowledge is in my head. I'm a key, key person risk, I should say. Key man, key person risk. If something were to happen to me tomorrow - God forbid - um, and I walked out with all the knowledge in my head, how are we going to operate going forward?
[00:24:41] Think about COVID. Everything shut down, people got furloughed. What happens to the knowledge those folks have in their head if they're no longer with your organization? That is key person risk, or key person dependency. How do I put policies in place and document my processes so that you as an organization can continue as a business, even if someone walks out the door?
[00:25:04] Susan Barry: Interesting.
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[00:26:50] Susan Barry: We like to make sure that our listeners come away from each and every episode of Top Floor with some very practical, specific tips to try either in their businesses or their personal lives, maybe while they're traveling. Most hotels in the United States are franchisees of a brand. If I'm a hotel owner and a franchisee, what should I be doing to either upgrade myself or influence the upgrade of a legacy system?
[00:27:27] Jeanelle Johnson: It all comes down to demand. Who's demanding it? As we, I think we all know, the squeaky wheels tend to get the grease. And I think there's an element of, “What are you seeing in the guests that maybe the brand may not see because they're not on the ground?” Especially in a franchisee situation, right? Where typically the brand is not providing the folks that are actually operating the hotels. Oftentimes it's a third party management company or the franchisee themselves.
[00:27:54] And same with the owner, right? The owner may have visibility into certain things that are required that maybe aren't being met and thinking about ways that, you know, technology can enhance meeting those needs. And honestly, the owners and franchisees, they pay a fee for service, right? And part of that fee sometimes covers technology.
[00:28:15] Susan Barry: Sometimes it's quite a lot.
[00:28:17] Jeanelle Johnson: I can't comment on that in particular. However, I do think sometimes it does in fact cover things like technology. And so if the demand is there - but there's an investment required, right? And so we all have to, you know, I work in deals and MNA and ROI return on investment is a KPI - key performance indicator - speaking in alphabet soup. Um, so there has to be that return on investment and part of that is, “What is the demand?” and how do I, “If I do invest in this, what's my return for doing so?”
[00:28:46] Susan Barry: We have reached the fortune telling portion of our show. Now is the time to predict the future so we can come back later and judge you on your accuracy. No, I'm just kidding. What is a prediction you have about the future of ESG and hospitality?
[00:29:06] Jeanelle Johnson: I predict that I'll be less about regulation and more about meeting consumer preferences and demands.
[00:29:13] Susan Barry: I think you're 100 percent right. I think that's the piece that gets left out of the conversation is travelers are looking for a real commitment that is not greenwashing. Uh, sorry to give a speech. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about work, what would it be?
[00:29:33] Jeanelle Johnson: Whew, that's a, um, very good question. What would I change about work?
[00:29:37] Susan Barry: And it doesn't have to be your job. It can just be the nature of work, if that makes sense.
[00:29:43] Jeanelle Johnson: I wish sometimes that the hamster wheel would slow down a little bit. We're constantly running, running, running, and I don't think that we, as a, as a country, take enough time to reset. So I would change that about work in some ways. It just seems to be always on, which it's it's kind of hard. We’ve maybe done that a little bit to ourselves, frankly, with all of our connectivity. Um, so maybe a little bit of a, a greater ability to disconnect.
[00:30:12] Susan Barry: Excellent. So what is next for you and what's next for your team?
[00:30:15] Jeanelle Johnson: Next for me is to continue to think about innovative ways to support my clients in the space. Um, to help them re-imagine the possible and to help them, uh, responsibly adopt technology in the ecosystem of hospitality. And to continue to support their businesses, frankly, and and think about what's next, what does the future hold for them?
[00:30:40] Susan Barry: Okay, folks, before we tell Janelle goodbye, we are going to head down to the loading dock where all of the best stories get told.
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[00:30:54] Susan Barry: Okay, Janelle, what is a story you would only tell me on the loading dock?
[00:30:59] Jeanelle Johnson: Oh, deepest, darkest stories. Um, so I mentioned earlier that I worked in, in food and beverage. I actually worked at a pretty, uh, famous restaurant in, in DC that, um, hosted numerous political figures and celebrities. And I was a hostess and then I would, you know, take reservations during the day. So one day I'm sitting in the basement, that's where they put us to take reservations at the time, sitting in the basement, answering phones. And I get a call and it's this voice… and I'm like, “I know that voice.” And the, the person on the other line said, “Do you know who this is?” And I was like, “Um, I think it's, a famous comedian that, uh, I may have heard? Your voice is very, um, memorable.” And they're like, “Yes. Do you know why I'm calling?” I’m like, “I have no idea. How am I supposed to know why you're calling me?”
[00:31:54] Susan Barry: To tell me a joke? What?
[00:31:56] Jeanelle Johnson: Right! I'm a 19 year old college student. No, I have no idea why you're calling me. Well, he wanted to, um, he had some dietary preferences and wanted the chef to, uh, change the menu or change some of his preparation for certain foods. And I was like, “Chef doesn't change his menu for anyone.” And the, the, the, the person on the other line mentioned, he said, “Well, don't you know who I am? Does chef know who I am?” I was like, “Chef is chef.” I was like, “but I'm happy to take your, your contact details and give you a call back.” I'm pretty sure no one has ever stood up to this person, right? Very famous comedian.
[00:32:31] And here I am 19, standing up to this guy. And so I went to chef and chef, of course said, “Absolutely not, not for anyone.” And so I called the comedian back and I said, sorry, “You're out of luck. Not going to change for you. Uh, happy to cancel your reservation.” And the comedian decided to keep his reservation. So funnily enough, um, he, he decided to keep the reservation chef did not change his prep. And, uh, I think the comedian actually really enjoyed the original preparation.
[00:33:03] Susan Barry: It has to have been something like, “Don't cook my food with butter” that if you're forced into it, you know, it tastes better that way. Here's my question for you: having worked in a place with so many famous and well-known guests coming through, has the phrase, “Do you know who I am?” ever worked on you for anything?
[00:33:29] Jeanelle Johnson: My response is, “Do you know who I am?” No one cares. I mean, people may be, some people may care who you are, but not this 19 year old kid in college, just making, you know, trying to make a living wage to pay her tuition.
[00:33:45] Susan Barry: Right! Well, I know who you are, which is Jeanelle Johnson and I so appreciate you being here. I know our listeners got a lot out of our conversation and I really enjoyed writing up to the Top Floor!
[00:33:57] Jeanelle Johnson: Thank you so much, Susan.
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[00:34:01] Susan Barry: Thank you for listening. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast.com/episode/103.
[00:34:10] Top floor is produced by John Albano, who also composed and performed our elevated elevator music, with vocals by Cameron Albano. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues after you leave us a five star review. You can subscribe to Top Floor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you like to listen.
[00:34:36] Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Top Floor Podcast at www.topfloorpodcast.com. Have a hospitality marketing question? Reach us at 850 404 9630 to be featured in a future episode.